Ordinary board vs assymetric

[Mattias]

Hi!
When carving om my heelside it feels like I have to lean forward as far as possible to keep my board from skidding(weight distr 60/40). and on toeside I weight my backleg a bit more weight 40/60. Teoretically I would absolutely lova a assymetric board. I´ve understnd that they don´t produce them anymore, why??? Since I´m a construction engineer I know that is not due to torsional stiffness that is mentioned. I agree that the flexpattern would not be the same on the toe/heel side but again, not by much. So why? I think I will try to buy a assymetric board, does anyone have one for sale? Or would I hate a assymetric board due to things I don´t know?
Thanks!

[fluke]

It seems that asymmetricals aren't very popular these days. Have a read here: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/asymetric.cfm

However, some Swiss show us that the 'Asymmetrical Empire' hasn't perished. Check out Pureboarding's #one: http://www.pureboarding.com/en/

These guys rip.

Cheers!
fluke

[pokkis]

Mattias, i think that Mats from Alpinepunk might have some experience from Pureboarding #1, kålla på

[István]

Mattias,

What do you exactly mean by 'lean forward'? Put weight on your front-foot (so leaning forward longitudinally to the board) or leaning forward like bending over to you upper body close to your feet (or fron-side edge).

In any case there must be some problems with your gear / setup / edge / technique and I'm not sure if the assymmetric board was the good solution.

In an optimal case weight distribution should be equal between your feets and your body should not do any counter-rotation or balancing to the opposite direction.


Cheers,

István


ps.: Pokkis, I guess 'kalla pa' is in Finnish. I'm sure you know that our languages belong to the same language group (finn-ugric) so I should understand this. But I don't
Pokkis,

[pokkis]

Nope, that is not Finnish, it is Swedish so no wonder it was not familiar for you

[vkrouverk]

I have noticed by wear on my Swoard, that weight distribution is indeed asymmetrical: my board's heelside front and toeside back edge are worn more than other end of edge. However, with Swoard I don't feel that I should move my weight forward or backward at all (this is quite opposite to F2 Silberpfeil, which won't turn without weight shifting) and I'm not sure, that asym construction would help here.
However, I've pondered, whether asym construction would help in other case: while looking to EC videos, it could be noticed, that heelside turns are with greater radius and they don't slow rider down very much. On other hand toeside turns' radius is quite small, 'downtime' short in comparison with heelside and after toeside turn rider has to gather speed before committing next (heelside) turn (after heelside turn there is usually sufficient speed left to start toeside turn immediately).
I'm not sure, what is exact reason for this, but I believe, that this is result of several factors:
* on toeside snow-touching surface is bigger (both hands + chest) than on heelside (one hand + side), therefore speed decreasing is greater.
* On toeside board is put on much higher edge, therefore turn radius is smaller. This is caused by body construction: our kneed bend forward, therefore it is easier to move weight toward heelside edge, reduce angulation and decrease board's angle on heelside turns, resulting in larger turn with better speed maintenance.
* Stance on snowboard is asymmetric, therefore turns should be asymmetric too

Is there riding technique, which allows to have totally symmetric EC turns? Or is EC technique immature yet and those symmetric turns are just learning and developing thing?
Perhaps asym board with larger sidecut at toe edge would help it?

/me without riding from March and thinking those weird thoughts...

[Mattias]

I lean forward toward the nose while doing EC heelcarving turns (or at least trying...) If I look at the EC videos I can also see that they use forward lean to prevent skidding. In my case I think its very hard to obtain a great EC heelside turn because of this. It feel like it would be much easier on a assym board. But I haven´t tested so I don´t know for sure
Anybody tested it? If it is I will start looking for one... If not I will try to move my bindings forward from recommended (2 cm back).

Have only ridden once this season but now it won´t be long

[skywalker]

Hi Matthias,

I don't hink, an asymmetric board would be able to help you. When riding with ambition you surely would overload the nose on heelside turns. Your problem rather sounds like a rotation problem than like a board problem. What you call weight shift is rotating the rear shoulter towards the turn inside.

Measurements made some years ago showed, that weight transfer on edge changes doesn't occur along the front foot axis but nearly normal to the board's length axis. So usual asymmetry shortens the heelside edge at the nose to help the rider with lack of riding technique. What I'm trying to say is: The expected asymmetry between front- and backside doesn't exist, so why should the board e asymmetric?

And there is one more point: You write

Since I´m a construction engineer I know that is not due to torsional stiffness that is mentioned

Maybe it's not a torsion issue, but I strongly believe, that the flex is influenced. more exactly: The toeside edge is totally weakened near the nose, where the backside doesn't exist any more. It's the free corner af a triangle, as the heelside tail end is. So the shorter part of the edge is harder, while the longer edge side is softer... which might have a similar result as well-designed symmetric edges of same length and stiffness

[harald]

I am not an expert on board design and construction. However, one reason for your impression of the need for more forward lean could be traced back to the foot position on the board. In order to make the board turn you have to engage the tip. Since the heel is more fare away from the tip than the toe, you have to compensate by shifting the weight more forward when inititiating the heel turn. That is also my feeling. This is done by angling the legs forwards directing the forces from the hips through the legs. In the front turn the toes and knees are already in better position to engage the tip. Whith a proper distribution of the weight between the front and back leg is should be possible to do symmetrical turns in both directions.
As far as i understood the article by Jack Michaud, asymmetrical boards works best when the rider only rocks from side to side (hanging the butt out) not bending the knees towards the tip in the turn. Since, boards now are designed the way they are, the reason should be that this is working best with a proper riding technique, as Skywalker points out.

[Silber]

Maybe I am getting too old, but I still remember reading about the differences in riding asym vs sym boards in races. They use to say that the asym would require a more round vs straight turn around the poles. Which is what carving actually requires. As a lucky owner of a asym Burton PJ 5.6 I could confirm this difference vs my sym Santa Cruz 157 (nowadays unfortunately broken). Honestly I would love to have a asym once again... Considering how fragile the bottom of my swoard is (already had to have it repaired..) I might have one by the end of the year...By the way yesterday I saw two beautiful asym WD used as sunglasses displays in a store in Santa Cristina (Italy). I almost shed a tear...and asked if they still had any without holes for the glasses...

[István]

Geee... a good board used as a sunglass holder.... I think I would execute the person if I saw something like that

Cheers,

István

[Mattias]

I think Harald is spot on. But because it is a bit more difficult to load the front on the heel side turn wouldn´t a asym board make it easier? (I would like the same radius on both sides) Anybody tried it recently?
Thanks for all helpful answers

[Christoph]

Hi Mattias,

it was fun to read your question and all the answers.

I'm riding the pureboarding #one and for me it looks like you found some points of our riding.
In fact, the riding of pureboarding is in the following way:
on toeside the waight is basically on the backfoot and on heelside it's on the front-foot. You can check this easaly by looking at the images and the movies on the pureboarding website.
I also ride this technique on symetrical freestyle boards and it works ...

For all the other answers I have just a smile ........ why can we do it when everybody say's it's nothing an this can't work?

By the way the image on the left is my backside with the waight on my frontfoot ...... or not?

Keep on carving and try it out .... maybe it also works for you ....

[skywalker]

Hi,

I guess, at least one half of us did it too... and by 10 Years passing found, that it was o.k. in the past . Of course one can smile, belive me, I do so, too .

What I see is: #1 seems to be quite short and soft. It allows you to carve fakie, to jump, etc. But I also see, that especially on backside turns, your C. o G. stays very vlose to the board. Pushing it to the limit, you even bend your hips as much as possible, to get your upper body closer to your board... and in this way reduce the edge pressure.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm far from critisicing your riding style. I like it the way you ride! But One thing I've learned: If there are two facts like asy board and carving low, there isnt a "because" between them necessarilly. There also might be a "although" in between . And one more: I don't hate asymmetrical boards, I had a lot of fun on some of them for many years. But with the riding techique of today, I can't feel any asymmetry of my riding besides the natural asymmetry of riding sidewards. So why should my board be asymmetrical?

[Christoph]

Hi Skywalker ......

there has nothing to be between us ..... we all to what we have fun with!
To me it's seams we come to the points of the discussion:

- Boardwith, 15, 17, 21.5, 23.5 .....
- Angles 67/60, 56/49, 45/30, 51/27, 54/24 .....
- Body-Rotation, no rotation at all .....

This covers a huge range of hardboot snowboarding and all of this works for extremecarving.

So you can not compare a symetrical virus with a asymetrical #one!
They both do a good job on the slopes and they are made for a different style!

For me the question is on which of these "extremes" do I feel well and in which way do I want to ride? After this I choose the board, make my setup and ride the apropriate style.